Issues with How to train you dragon universe

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Asmoraz's picture
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I started to think this when I watched movies 1-3 with my friend just a few nights back. I think the intelligent of the dragons is really wishy-washy with the series. Especially Toothelss. Because in series, sometimes he seems to almost understand spoken language, like "Hey Toothless, do this or that". And okay, I know, that you can teach tricks to animals. Like "shake" and then the dog gives you a paw. Of course. But sometimes he's almost too intelligent, and the others times it seems like he should understand something with a same level of intelligent. I don't know, it just rubs me i a wrong way. I'm already quite annoyed that in the series Toothless was perfect with almost everything. Fastest, most intelligent, perhaps strongest...who knows. And yes, many likes him, but with such a huge pack of different animals, can't we have something that Toothless isn't the best?


Also, what's up with Valka? I think she's completely messed up character, and I could rant about her this whole page, but just to save times, just one thing;

Why she was like "dragons are our friends!" when in those days dragons stole everything? Yes, not by their free will, but what's the solution? Just sit there and let them rob? Of course, later in the story we learn that Red Dead forced them, but vikings didn't have a clue. Only thing they knew was that sume huge beasts came and destroyed everything. Of course people try to defend themselves, it's only logical. They were just humans, and those were some huge animals with claws and fire and stuff. So...what then? Being friendly with dragons woulnd't help a bit, because Red Dead was still at large. Even Hiccup when he shot Toothless was like "I'm gonna kill this beast!". Of course! He was a viking after all, so where did Valka get that hippie style?


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XxElectroShadowxX's picture
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I agree with you for almost everything, but all i can say is that it's a fictional universe XD it has it's flaws and pros.

If you think about it tho, they did say that MANY dragons were much stronger, intelligent and faster than Toothless, but you can't really see that...( i think they implied that with for example the scauldron and the skrill)

It's kind of the story tho, must love it for what it is :D



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ANIC101's picture
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I'm so relieved I'm the not only one who feels that way about toothless, like c'mon all the other dragons act like animals (which makes sense) but toothless gets the intelligence of a human? This has always bugged and annoyed me so much :l, that's why my favorite version of him his movie one, cause I feel like he actually ACTS like an animal in that one



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Megaboltphoenix's picture
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Through a few things I can agree upon since basically, this isn't a perfectly logical franchise.

It's common in cartoons/animation that animals have an exaggerated levels of intelligence, and it has been evident that Toothless and other dragons are able to understand human speech pretty well, as well as the animals. Like the black sheep in the 2nd movie who flinched in fear when Gobber told it to "have a nice flight." Or Tuffnut's chicken in the entire series of RTTE that happens to understand the situation at hand, and surprisingly adequite problem-solving skills. What part of that bothers me is that it has been noted that dragons do not have that kind of mental capacity, and it's only shown sometimes —in other words, some dragons act human-like, and some dragons act more animal-like.

Sometimes the smart dragons act animal-like. Sometimes the not very smart dragons act human-like. Sometimes it's for comedic purposes, which still, I do not get it. I might be saying this because I'm too old and too... right hemisphere dominant to understand creative desicions.


The Toothless think bothers me too. I was fine during the first movie, Toothless is a trained dragon, Hiccup had help, brains and brawns, defeats the Red Death because the whole movie of Hiccup learning to about dragons had built up to that point, and Toothless was just a dragon with a special ability along with the other dragons, so each has unique artributes.

What went downhill was the piles and piles of new unlockable abilities that Toothless himself didn't even know he had. First off, how? I hated that moment where Vilka pressed on the back of Toothless' neck and got him to grow a third arm, despite Vilka never seeing a night fury (up close). Yah, yah, I know --it's not a third arm, it's splitting his spikes, but Toothless was able to split his spikes by himself. He didn't accidently do that during childhood?

The ability stock-piling annoyed me. I would like to see an Alpha Hookfang, or Alpha Stormfly, ect. Nonetheless, I miss the days where it's just the dragons with simple abilities.


Also the "Alpha" thing. Since when did the entire dragon species/class have a monarchy? Do they have their own culture? Their own language? Have they used tools? Did they make an entire society with their own rules, regulations, government, or even religion? What happened to 'tame the wild beast'? Why are they so human? Why are they remotely better than humans?


Also, the Climax of the 3rd movie. I don't really care over what people say when I say that Hiccup had made the wrong desicion. It's a heart-warming idea to let Toothless go free and raise a family, but there's a better way to do that. Sending the dragons to the Hidden World and remain there until humans learn to accept dragons. In what world does Hiccup think that'll work?? That's not how trust works! If two people don't get along, isolating them doesn't make it better. Humans and dragons share the same planet, it's best if he teaches newer generations how to coexist with the dragons, and people'll learn to trust dragons with experience! NOT isolation.

Literally, seperating them would make humans and dragons completely forget their existence, and worsens their trust upon each other. Plus, it never happens. Humans completely forgot the dragons existed 10 years later. Yup, that plan backfired. Way to go Hiccup, have a cookie for your beutiful well-thought plan.


(ranting because I'm on a time-frame and cannot correct my wording and spelling like I normally do)




Also, did you know that originally, Vilka was supposed to be a villain? The "All dragons are our friend" personality made her a crazy dragon lady. A crazy dragon lady that was 100% sure that no one in Berk could change, and that Hiccup was 100% responsible for injuring Toothless and assumed a Stolkhelm Syndrom behavior. I'll let someone else explain why that was changed.

But what would you like better? A mother figure that Hiccup lacked throughout the entire franchise, or make his mother a crazy dragon lady psycopath?

(Also, Gobber was originally supposed to be the one to hidein the 2nd movie, as opposed to Stoick. That was thanks to Steven Spielburg... for making Stoick di.e instead)



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LilyStark's picture
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Joined: 03/27/2017

Daang this thread is gold!


I still don't understand why Stoick found it necessary to "help Valka take off her armor" in the second movie right after knocking Drago down for trying to kill her. Stoick is (was) the man who said that Drago is a madman and can't be reasoned with. And yet he went and helped his PERFECTLY OK wife instead of, oh I don't know, killing the guy who has murdered a bunch of people, dragons, and tried burning you in a house? Stoick was a warrior, he probably has killed dozens of dragons and some enemy vikings. So anyways Drago got back up and once again tried to kill stoick, then his son, and then Stoick dies as a result of Toothless's fatal blast. He could have at least done something to obstruct Drago from continuing his raid while the madman was down. 





Megaboltphoenix's picture
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Joined: 07/09/2016
This Reply has been Edited

((Here's what this comment reminds me of))

*Drago talks off Vilka's mask*

*Drago about to kill Vilka*

*Stoick throws his axe and kills Drago*

Hiccup: "Daaaad."

Stoick: "What."

Hiccup: "You killed him!"

Stoick: [looks at Drago and back] "Uh-huh."

Hiccup: "Awgh... I wanted to change his mind about dragons, and stop a war peacefully!"

Stoick: "He was gonna kill my wife!... And I was carrying my axe, plus I'm a Viking, so... you know."

Hiccup: *sigh* "Yah, okay. I guess that's true... Thanks Dad."



LilyStark's picture
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Joined: 03/27/2017
Mmm watcha say..

Gosh seeing them as one happy family without Stoick dead makes me sad and happy at the same time.

Asmoraz's picture
Joined: 02/10/2020
I'm always happy that people

I'm always happy that people aren't angry with me because I'm not huge fan of Toothless. I'm not saying that I hate him or anything, I just think that his level of human understading is too on/off. He's cute and all, but yes, first movie was indeed the best, because he truly was like an animal. Take Stormfly or Hookfang instead, they were completely animals all the time. Yes, they could be trained to follow simple orders, of course, but they didn't have so much facial expressions like Toothless. Like animals usually don't have as much as expressions as humans do. Of course they have their own body language, can growl, show teeth etc. But clearly Toothless understood words and meaning behind them, because he could communicate through expressions. Like the whole restling scene in the movie 2, when Hiccup is something like "Are you pouting now you big baby?" and Toothless rolls his eyes. And very next scene, he's playing tag with Stormfly. This just feels weird. Why no-one else do this? Not ever skrill that is also extremely intelligence? What comes to Chicken and some sheeps..okay, fine, I admit, they reacted too, but I think that it wasn't meant to be taken seriosly like Toothless.


It's also funny to me, that Valka couldn't be the villain (also like Elsa couldn't in Frozen). I don't get it. They make characters that are clearly meant to be villains, but in half way they are just like "..Nah, family is so important, mom/dad/sister/brother can't be baddies". Maybe it must be stepmom...anyway, Valka being a good guy doesn't make any sense at all. It would've been much more interesting and logical to her to be the bad guy. Valka being a bad mother, and person too, is completely own topic. If someone is interested to talk about her, please, I'm more than willing.


Also! Yes! I totally agree with that ending in movie 3. Yes, it's very good lesson. All that "If you love something, let it go". Sure, yes, we all need to learn that, and it's a powerful scene. Bittersweet and beautiful. Yes, letting go is really hard, but life goes on. BUT! This is NOT how you do it. I agree that it's just silly to isolate the dragons in their own little world until humans are ready. First of all, they are indeed dragons, and if they really want, they would beat humans easily. Especially if Toothless is so smart. In the short movie Homecoming Hiccups children are afraid of dragons and don't like them (it's still silly, because they know who Toothless and Stormfly are...). And they are going to continue to be that way, because there is no dragons in the world anymore, so they can't make any contact or learn anything. This could've been easily avoided if the next generation would have contact with the dragons. Yes, dragons could still live in their own, hidden world, but could also come and go as they please. It's their planet too. Hiccup made so many talks about how we should learn to co-exist with the dragons, that this feels a bit...weird from him.

VicZarSky's picture
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Oh my gooooooooosh

Finally somebody's speaking some of my thoughts.


The first movie will always be my favorite, because that's how I want dragons to be. Feral, animalistic, and instinctive. I like how toothless there was this, panther-like dragon growling and acting scared or defensive around Hiccup. And Hiccup had to adapt to calmly befriend this dragon by communicating with him through the DRAGON's terms.


Dreamworks succeeded in making Toothless very likeable though, so I can't blame it if a lot of people love him. I like him too! I just don't like how they made so domesticated and unusually intelligent through the rest of the series. (Haven't watched the tv series. Haven't watched the last movie. I prefer the first always).


I love Valka though, she's like a cat lady but a dragon lady. I can't figure out why she didn't come back to the viking island though. Heck, she could probably ask cloudjumper to have her sneak back to the island to meet up with her baby or husband from time to time. Or heck if she's too scared of Stoic getting angry, be sneaky enough to just... Raise Hiccup from the shadows like Maleficent from the live-action adaptation.


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The first movie is my favorite too. I think it just shows how dragons were supposed to be at the beginning. The second and the third movie completely messed it up and made dragons a higher community living in their own hidden super peaceful world which should be definitely filled with water that streams down to the entry. So dragons don't drown there and don't eat each other. Super peaceful place. And dragons are also very peaceful and have never attacked people just because they were hungry. No, it's just people who constantly fights wars and is just bad and evil. Dragon's are good, they've always been. *facepalm*


Ok, stop. That's what I really needed to say. Yeah, I reeeaallyyyy love the first movie.


What about Valka? I think she just loved dragons more than her weak son and that's why she stayed with them instead of going back home. That's my personal opinion, you might disagree with me, that's fine. But seriously, Valka's thread just doesn't make sense, she seems so selfish to me.


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Megaboltphoenix's picture
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65% Rant

What bothers me the most about that (the fact that all dragons are misunderstood and are all peaceful creatures gone evil because of humans), is that the books didn't even address that.

There was the Red Death, yes. Of course, that's the first movie where there was one bad dragon. But the thing is, the book series: the FIRST and ORIGINAL httyd where the movies were based upon, even declared within the book (exactly book 10) Hiccup learned that not all dragons are good guys, and that like humans, some dragons are actually evil. In the final books, the antagonist was a dragon. He hated humans, he caused dragons to rebel against their peaceful masters, he ordered genocide.


In the franchise, they had to make a such a genocidal dragon a human. A human named Grimmel. Why? Because dragons are good guys, of course. Not a dragon that's been abused by dragon hunters that developed a massive hatred towards all humans and ordered genocide, not a dragon that seen what the dragon hunters have done to other dragons and developed a massive hatred towards humans and ordered genocide; not a rather ticked off dragon that questions Toothless' authority and cause a rebellion against Toothless and the Berkians and ordered genocide; NOPE! But a human that once killed a night fury and liked it. So he ordered genocide upon the dragons.



The How To Train Your Dragon book series disagrees that all dragons are good guys. But the franchise decided that "Hey, only humans are bad by nature."

AndreaEaston's picture
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I'm glad you mentioned something about the dragons being evil in the books.


I read the books after seeing the first movie and finished after the second came out. I was honestly in a culture shock: the books were so different from the movie universe and yet, despite me loving the movies, the books kept me hooked until the end. Not because of the dragons or seeing familiar characters, but because there was actually life-and-death threats. Having the dragons retaining a bit of their wild side, if not at all wild, and having the big-show-down antagonist reminded me that THESE DRAGONS are ACTUALLY DANGEROUS. Hiccup could have perished at any time, along side mankind: I didn't get this same feeling in the movies - probably to keep it friendly for the children.


I didn't get the "aw, they were best friends until the end" feeling when I finished the books, as I did with the movies. I got the "HOLY CRAP. HOW ON EARTH DID THEY SURVIVE?!" And that's what makes a good story.


(I forgot my point half way through here, I hope this makes sense o-o)


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To Megaboltphoenix

I said what's wrong in the movies, I haven't read the books (but I generally know the whole story) and really not going to do it - I'm not a big fan of this kind of books. The first movie was great because a dragon was the antagonist and, like you said, that was a very good idea. Dragons could be bad then. And surprisingly in HTTYD2 we get to know that dragons are good, only bad people force them to do bad things. Absurd.


You know, the major problem with dragons in the movies is that in the first movie they were shown as wild, dangerous animals. Not an intelligent kind like in the books. They didn't speak. They were animals. And that was great, I loved the idea. But suddenly in HTTYD2 and later in HTTYD3 everyone forgot that they are powerful, wild and dangerous. Even an unkown dragon is good and intelligent by nature (look at the beginning of the HTTYD3 and Hiccup petting a wild Scuttleclaw in only one mnute. This dragon was trapped in a cage and didn't have any reason to trust him, because humans trapped him. But who cares, Hiccup is the main character, so he can do everything -_-). They're just pets, just like dogs. Not dragons. They're not dragons anymore. They can't protect themselves even though six years ago they were able to destroy the whole village. That's the thing I don't like.


To be honest I think that the books and the trilogy have very little in common. Names, some ideas, but as far as I know they're completely different.


Grimmel... Huh. I know there may be his fans in this thread, but this is a very bad character. I mean, to bring out his cleverness he was surrounded by idiots - remember these Warlords, especially this one who played with ship figurines. And his obsession with killing all Night Furies, which is definitely impossible, and the fact that Toothless survived and he didn't know about him absolutely shows that it was impossible to kill all Night Furies. And the reason why he did it... let's say I don't buy it. It literally made me laugh. He sounded for me like a child saying "AAAA, I killed a NiGhT fUrY, I'm soooo powerful, I'll kill every of them! Dam-dam-dam!". But I know some people may disagree with me.

ladybrasa's picture
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That's not entirely accurate

That's not entirely accurate about Furious being evil. Misguided perhaps. He hated humans because Grimbeard killed Furious' beloved human brother, I believe Hiccup II, which was Grimbeard's own son. Grimbeard, former King, also outlawed Dragonese and used dragons and other humans as slave labor. After that, he chained Furious, a sea dragon, in the forests of Berserk Island I think it was, where he starved and chafed for at least 100 years. So yeah, humans made him that way. Despite that he was honorable to Hiccup III, though they were in separate sides. In the end Furious was right about humans. Hiccup III's reign improved things, but not enough for humans and dragons to coexist, so the dragons slowly removed themselves from human eyes.


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Selected Dragons:


Bluet the Deadly Nadder

Aster the Tide Glider

Teasel the Flightmare

Thistle the Scuttleclaw

Tigerlily the Monstrous Nightmare

Trillium the Fireworm Queen

Chicory the Hobblegrunt

Laurel the Gronckle

Henbit the Screaming Death

Foxglove the Sand Wraith

Salsify the Scauldron

Skullcap the Typhoomerang

Maypop the Thunderdrum

Nettle the Screaming Death

Honeysuckle the Changewing

                         Germander the Hideous Zippleback                       

Violet the Skrill

Periwinkle the Raincutter

Bergamot the Sweet Death

Clover the Rumblehorn

Vervain the Woolly Howl

Hyacinth the Smothering Smokebreath 

Skullcap the Boneknapper

Yarrow the Shivertooth

Mullein the Shockjaw

Hepatica the Snafflefang

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Redbud the Groncicle

Avens the Groncicle

Mazus the Groncicle

Spurge the Moldruffle

Witchazel the Stormcutter

Jimson the Mudraker

Gaura the Hotburple

Cohosh the Grapple Grounder

Agrimony the Snow Wraith

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The Dragoness's picture
The Dragoness
Supreme Viking Champion
Joined: 09/06/2017

While it's really hard for me to bad-talk Toothless and the Night Furies in general (because ADORABLE KITTY-CAT DRAGON!!!) I agree that there's no way a single species can be THAT epic. C'mon, Deadly Nadders are better trackers, Monstrous Nightmares and Zipplebacks have more firepower, and Skrills are just all-around more powerful. If Hiccup hadnt been around to guide Toothless, he actually would have lost to that Skrill. I wish they could show them more as animals, because even if they are intelligent they're still just that--animals.
However, LIGHT FURIES I have NO problem tearing to pieces. But that's not what this rant is about.
I do agree that the first movie is best. It gives me CHILLS every time I see the ferocious animal in Toothless' eyes, and it makes the sweet moments that much better. Everything about that movie just felt....I dunno. Solid. Real. While they missed the storyline (and the message) of the books by a long shot, the feeling of the world was pretty darn close. And the MUSIC! Oh.....yes, it's beautiful.
Second movie still felt like HTTYD. While the dragons were a bit more human, I think that could be explained by the fact that they are living together 24/7. They would naturally pick up some tendencies just from being around. Valka has....issues, but I don't think she intended to hurt anyone. She was just misguided. And she did almost kill Cloudjumper for daring to touch her baby. Almost. (Why you kidnap the human waving pointy thing at you, Cloudjumper? Why?) And the whole alpha thing was a little.....over-powered, but okay. Cool. Just roll with it. Maybe normal 'alpha species' are just bigger and more powerful? Yes? But other dragon packs have their own alphas. wouldnt Toothless have to defeat THEM too in becoming 'king of dragons?' Or does the sense of being in charge cause him to secrete this hormone that marks him as king? Or maybe I've just been taking too much biology lately. ANYWAY the message stayed very HTTYD-movieish--stick together, trust, and everything will turn out alright in the end (be honest, that's one of the main reasons we tell stories like this, to send this exact message). And the movie felt older (like Hiccup) without sacrificing the HTTYD feel. And the music was awesome too (For the Dancing and the Dreaming, anyone? Disney, take notes. THAT'S how you work a musical number into a story in a natural and believable way!)
BUT THEN--The Hidden World. OH MY GUMDROPS REALLY? After being best buds for YEARS, defeating every single villain that crossed their path, Hiccup forces Toothless to leave after knowing this prissy white dragon with pink sparkles (which is so wrong on so many levels. Really, Dreamworks? DOES EVER FEMALE DRAGON HAVE TO HAVE PINK SPARKLES?? WHAT WAS WRONG WITH A FEMALE NIGHT FURY!!!!!??? WHAT????) for LESS THAN A WEEK (which is such a DISNEY trope that I can't even begin to express my horror). REALLY HIKKE REALLY??? They could have stayed! Toothless would have WANTED to stay! They have WINGS, they could cross from Hidden World to New Berk anytime they wanted! Any ships who get close are going to be fried to a frazzle or smashed to pieces, and even if they DO have dragons, uh...Drago's Bewilderbeast is STILL down there. He can EASILY take them out. AND YOUR CHILDREN COULD HAVE DRAGONS AND FLY ON THEM--even though of course no one seems to fly their FIREBREATHING WAR MACHINES OF PETS in a battle-efficient manner except the original gang, despite being a people KNOWN TO BE EXTREMELY GOOD FIGHTERS. (I mean, REALLY?? Of all the dragons freed only Cloudjumper, Grump, and Skullcrusher think to go back for help).
Anyway, it just seemed like they were trying to sell this idea of 'letting go' and 'separation is hard but it's good for everybody' buuuutt, no, just no. That's not what their story was about. It was about STICKING TOGEEETHHEERRREE (Pixar did the same thing to Toy Story, btw. Couldnt STAND the ending to no. 4). And the whole world just seemed so artificial, almost like a Disney princess movie where the people are perfect and the animals are kinda people too and the plot just doesnt quite add up. The music is beautiful, but it also kind of hurts because it just sounds so much more...refined. CIVILIZED. The wildness of dragons was already gone.
Speaking of dragons leaving, that's kinda also one of the main things they HAD to work in, since the original story explains WHY the dragons are gone (and, I might add, the book says NOTHING about them returning in peace. It says if they wake up to a world where humans AREN'T better, there will be 'fangs and fire and everything awe-ful.' Which rings much more true than what the movies said). Anyway, the movie just made it so....abrupt. how are you going to organize a mass migration to this one specific spot in the middle of the ocean? Judging from what the movies imply, there are dragons EVERYWHERE. What about the ones in Russia? Or Africa? Or South America? Hmmm?
Also something I wanted to point out was Astrid. I thought she was being uncharacteristically oblivious and callous in movie 3. I mean, really? You KNOW how much and how long Hiccup has liked you, you FINALLY get betrothed, and then claim you're 'nowhere near ready' for marriage?...??? Hiccup has already struggled with insecurity and feeling of not being good enough, and doing this to him is NOT going to help. (especially right after his father has died and he has to be freaking CHIEF now). Or maybe she was just scared. Which doesnt seem like her either.
You know who else didnt seem like themselves? Hiccup. He was WAY too obsessed with dragons, to the point where it was hurting his tribe. Even for him, that was a bit much. For the most sensitive, observant knucklehead on Berk not very good. Or nice.
There was something else I really wanted to say, but I cant quite remember it. Ah, well, I'm sure it'll come back to me. Anyway, that's about all the ranting I have in me for now.



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HypergoofTheFriendlyBerserker's picture
Supreme Viking Champion
Joined: 02/10/2015
Wiggles the whispering d.eath ate my subject

I don't particularly have problums with the dragon inteligence levels. I was a book fan first and in the books the dragons were strait up another race with some extra beastal attributes. I also remember several times where dragons gave each other glances in responce to what the humans were saying during the show. On top of that human inteligence + animal don't have to be mutually exclusive concepts espessully when that animal is a dragon. Look up the real world Alex the african grey parrot and add that to the fact that dragons in mythology are quite often on the very smart end of the spectrum.


That being said. I do not think you are wrong in posting about your differing opinions and here's some of my own peeves even if some of them are things others already touched on.



Like Mega I HATED the neck button to split the back spikes. I was annoyed when HTTYD 3 continued this Toothless gains new abilitys stuff but at least the abilitys made a little more sense. Does it steal the skrill's thunder a bit? Yes. And that is a valid critisism. But at least it's an ability that I could believe an animal called the offspring of lightning and d.eath itself might have. A neck button that someone else has to push down for the first time to make a new ability activate however? It Toothless was a robot that would be fine but he's not. I'm suppose to believe that this animal evolved this way somehow. There's no reason for it and it's detramental. I hate it.

I wish they would have just used Toothless already established abilitys in new ways. Adding a new power to fix the new problum is sort of a cop out.




The light fury design. There is part of me that likes the Ying Yang sort of symbolism. (though in that the dark one was the female) However, I hate how feminized the lightfury is. It's not so much that I hate the idea of a species looking like this or that her design is bad as a stand alone design. The problum is that she was made as Toothless' girlfriend. They designed the species with Toothless' girlfriend in mind. And they made a species that has that disney "girl" look. The design could be worse. At least she doesn't have eyelashes but my g.od. I thought dreamworks was better then that. I mean, freaking SPARKLES. I don't care what the exuse is with the mirror scales. This is a dragon with light pink swirls and sparkles. It's a pretty dragon as a species but the only one we get to know is Toothless' girlfriend and that makes me feel gross watching it.



Unnessisary romance. Astrid's being into Hiccup enough to k.iss him by the end of the first movie was unnessisary and it made me temorarally hate Astrid untill the show let her be a charicter. I am sick and tired of the guy and the girl being obligated to pair up in movies. To add insult to injury the Hiccup in the books had a wonderful female friendship that didn't go this route and was a breath of fresh air. I felt like Astrid was a middle finger to that. It felt rushed too which makes the insult that much worse.



HTTYD 3's ending. Yup. I'm on this boat too. There was just nothing logical about the way it was handled. It felt like the writers wanted that dragon leaving reference to the book ending so bad that they broke everything to make it work. It reminds me of a making of thing once where they were talking about the changes Toothless went through for the first movie. They had just finished talking about the changes to the story and then they mentioned that now their toothless didn't fit in such a suprised way that it actually annoyed me. I was like "Oh, you THINK if you change EVERYTHING in the story then MAYBE the charicters who were built for the setting in the ORIGANAL story would have to change to fit your NEW story too?! You're SUPRISED BY THIS?"

I can respect the desire to pay respect to your source material but the more stuff you change the more other stuff you should expect to change because it's all connected. When you've changed as much as the HTTYD movies did compared to the books the world you made is NOT the same world from that material. Write a new situation where the stuff makes sense or throw it out. Could've at least had the main charicters loose or something. You know why the dragons in the books left? Because things got really bad. WAY worse then they ever got anywhere close to in the movies.

In the movies the good guys won. Hiccup looked like a jerk making everybody else's dragons leave because his had a girlfriend now. (Just suddenly that do anything for each other and stick together no matter what theme from everywhere else is thrown out huh?) Plus that left a bunch of unresolved issues. And not like unresolved the way the book hinted the dragons may come back and it was forboding because we don't know how that's going to go but unresolved as in just really dumb stuff. Berk still has a TON of enemys that will try to k.ill everybody for years and years of messing up their dragon hunts right?

These dragons are all bonded to their humans and none of them refused to leave?

Berk is in a really h.ard place to get to without dragons now right? Isn't that going to be super inconvinent for all time? They're going to need a bunch of crazy pully systems and stuff. Pullys that enemys of Berk might fire stuff apon to try and damage in order to cause even more trouble.

Aren't some of the vikings going to be super salty to have left Berk for these dragons only to find out that they won't be able to interact with the dragons they left Berk for?

How does Berk's dragons going to the hidden world result in ALL of them everywhere returning?

Are most of these dragons even able to survive in that ecosystem? Many seem to have evolved away from cave life.

Can the hidden world support the sudden increase in dragon population?

In the Books the dragons hid in various places and hybrinated. In the movies they all go to one cave system. However big that system may be there's still going to be a population increase and cave ecosystems are delicate.




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Megaboltphoenix's picture
Supreme Viking Champion
Joined: 07/09/2016
-insert cool subject here-

Wow, I knew Hiccup's decision was questionable, but I didn't realize how much damage he (potentially) caused for the Berkians and others, and the Hidden World itself! :O

Not to mention those poor Defenders of the Wing with their village destroyed, or the Wingmaidens and how they lost pretty much everything —and the razorwhip population declining to extinction because there is no Wingmaiden to protect the infants in the Hidden World. Geez, I hope they're all right! SOMEBODY SAVE THE RAZORWHIPS! XO

HypergoofTheFriendlyBerserker's picture
Supreme Viking Champion
Joined: 02/10/2015
Wiggles the whispering d.eath ate my subject

That is true. The razorwhips had created such a strong symbiotic relationship with a human group that they are akin to some of the more famous symbiotic relationships in the animal kingdom. There's a good chance that they are obligate symbiotes who need the other half to survive. They may very well


AndreaEaston's picture
Supreme Viking Champion
Joined: 06/02/2017
Don't mine me!

Can I just say that NEVER, in my entire life, LOVED so many people that I will never meet in real life. EVERY single one of these comments reflects on the anger I have had bottled up since the ending of the third movie. I can't really add much to the argument since I agree with it all so much. Just know I support all of you all's rants.

toothlessnightfury's picture
Supreme Viking Champion
Joined: 01/24/2015
Light Fury! Get Down!

Ugh yes! You all took the words straight out of my mouth. I agree with almost everything said here! (I love Light Furies but I do agree that they have a lot of flaws.)


THW bugged me to no end, I loved the moral and what they were trying to convey but they just wanted to end the movies the way the books were and the dragons didn't truly leave in the books. I feel like what Hiccup did was give the bad guys what they wanted. no more dragons! Or at least did not want peace between Vikings and dragons. Viggo, Ryker, Drago, Grimmel! Hiccup gave them what they wanted basically, they all won in the end. I also feel like some people would be angry at Hiccup's choice to send every. Single. Dragon. away! Uh hello! Just because your releasing Toothless does not mean every dragoneeds to leave. I also don't really like how they just dropped everything and left berk. Also the whole 'king of dragons' thing is complete bull, I can accept Toothless being the alpha of the berk dragons cosidering he defeated the bewilderbeast and freed them from Drago's slavery. That's makes more sense than magically becoming the ruler of the Hidden World.


I also feel like they made Toothless so easily leave Hiccup for a dragon he JUST met! I mean did you see how excited he was for the automatic tail he so easily tossed away in GOTnF (Which was a magical moment that DreamWorks totally ruined). He had known Hiccup for 6 years and just met the Light Fury and all of a sudden, he's so into her and practically abandoning his best friend. I mean come on! You can have a girlfriend and your best friend. It shouldn't be something you have to choose between.


Also the whole cloaking thing with the Furies is also stupid. So is the splitting spines. Toothless should have known about that. How can you not. I mean if it was already a thing we knew Toothless could do, I would hate it less.


Valka's character is strange, yes. I would very much like to know what drew her to believe dragons could be good. her son didn't believe until he saw for himself, she still believed evebefore meeting Cloudjumper. Although it certainly would have beeinteresting to see Valka as the villain. I have so many things I could say about that, but this computer is driving me insane.


The Light Fury could have beedesigned better. For starters make the sparkles white! (I actually like them kinda, reminds me of the night sky... if only she had actually been a night Fury). Make her less feminine, or at least put emphasis on gender differences with the Light Fury.


WHYYYY THERE no other NIGHT FURIES!? Come on Toothless is already special! There's more than one Pikachu and he's the symbol of the Pokemon Company for crying out loud!


I could say some other things, but this computer is so infuriating!


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ladybrasa's picture
Supreme Viking Champion
Joined: 05/06/2015
I'm gonna be a naysayer here.

I'm gonna be a naysayer here. Well, not really. Just food for thought.


The end goal in the Books and also the movie trilogy was that there are not dragons today (not visible anyway). Cressida explained it by dragons going to the arctic and the bottom of the seas to hibernate or that some could be invisible and the nano dragons carrying on as always but we just don't notice them. In the movies Dead created the Hidden World for the dragons to go to. In both cases, the explanations can have many holes in them, firstly being how do you get a whole planet full of dragons to comply? (One argument is that dragons only existed in the Archipelago, but both Books and movies suggested a larger range but never explicitly stated this)


Anyway, point being, what could Cressida and Dean do to make the "dragons go away" ending? Y'all are more creative than me, but I ain't got nothin' that would be remotely believeable. Except killing them all, which humans are good at, but not a very popular ending ...


As for me and the third movie - way way too rushed. Dean tried to squeeze way too much into a normal length movie to make the movies a trilogy. Not satisfying at all. One of my peeves was how easy it was to decide to leave Old Berk. That should have been a long drawn out soul searching decision for everyone, but there wasn't time for that. They already cut out Drago's redemption arc early on due to time. Just way too much jammed in that the whole story got out of whack. Should have made two movies out of it, as was written, IMO.

LissaFish's picture
Supreme Viking Champion
Joined: 02/12/2017

Those two are my biggest miffs about HTTYD; Valka and Toothless's evolution! As many others said it's nice to see I'm not the only one who feels this way.


If they had started with Toothless and other dragons being predominantly anthromorphic that would be different. But they didn't. Halfway through the trilogy the dragons switched from being strongly influenced by animals back toward the original concepts of Cressida's world, where they were sentient reptiles. I like both, but I don't like both combined that way.


Toothless's magical power add-ons have been grating to me since seeing the second movie in theatres. Also his rise to royalty. Again, that's the switch from animalistic to anthromorphic. About his powers: why couldn't his powers have remainded the same as in the first movie? He was already amazing, why not just stay that way? It builds so much more of an interesting, and exciting a story when a character has limits. They have to find ways to get around those limits which takes cunning and/or courage, and they may/will meet with enemies capable of just as much or more than they are. That's why the skrill was so exciting in the tv series, Hiccup and Toothless had met a dragon that could keep them on their toes. That is never seen in plots where the hero gets a new superpower every time he's in over his head.

(beware of falling buckets of salt xD)

Valka. I could go on and on about Valka. Seriously. But I won't because well I'm gonna be nice. If you really really want to hear me on a rant role, ask for my unabridged opinion on said above-par character xD


Okay I so typed and deleted over twenty sentences on that subject and then remembered I was going to be nice x'D In short, still glad that others feel as I do about some of this. ^^




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HypergoofTheFriendlyBerserker's picture
Supreme Viking Champion
Joined: 02/10/2015
Wiggles the whispering d.eath ate my subject

I kind of want to see the full rant.

Dragon XD's picture
Dragon XD
Supreme Viking Champion
Joined: 01/21/2018
*Grabs popcorns*

I agree with most of this. On the toothless part? Yeah, i agree with most of it. I hate how human-like they made him. In the first movie? He was an intelligent (still not as intelligent as humans), dangerous, powerful, cat-like dragon. In the third movie? He was a human-like, stupid, slobbery doggo, that left and completely forgot about hiccup for a glittery bratwurst that he met 3 days ago. Ok, he's an animal with insticts, i get it, but remember in the GoTNF short, where he sacrified his own autonomy for hiccup? Yeah. That is the toothless i want. He wasn't as intelligentas us, but he still was able to have human-like thoughts, without them being too humanized. But on the power part, no, sorry, don't agree with that. Toothless was defined in the first movie as the "unholy offspring of lightning and death itself" so i think his powers were well balanced in all the three movies, exept for the fact they made him weaker in the second and third movie, thing that still censored me off. The only dragon that needs help here is the gronkle, that became a weak, pup-like dragon in the second and third movie, while in the first movie it was a dangerous bulky dragon. Remember that in the first movie, the gronkle was said to be *stronger* than the nadder? Yeah, they massacrated this poor dragon. The others are fine.


On the valka part? Yeah, i agree on that. How did she know the dragons weren't evil? It would be impossible to know. Hiccup, that had the same problem of not being a dragon killer like her, still had a better reaction to the dragons. Yeah, he didn't want to kill them, but not because he knew they weren't bad, but because he was afraid of them. Valka couldn't know the truth behind the dragon attacks.


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Varku's picture
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Joined: 06/14/2015

Toothless (and to an extent, the other dragons) are anthropomorphic. They're not animal-animals and appear to be able to read and understand human (body) language, tone etc. Toothless behaves very humanlike. He has human expressions, gestures and quirks. He can use his 'hands' to convey points, too.


I do see your point with how Toothless seems to be a couple tiers higher on the 'anthro scale' than the other dragons in the franchise. Compare Toothless to Stormfly and there's a world of difference. It's something that has been bothering me for a bit. Imagine being Toothless, and you're the only one who can communicate in such a humanlike way that people will understand you with ease, whereas other dragon species' intelligence is on par with some simiiforme- knuckledraggers, if they had any knuckles to drag.


I suppose that (night) furies aren't just sentient, they're sapient beings. 


Something fun to think about. I'll see myself out now.


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Asmoraz's picture
Joined: 02/10/2020
I think when making anthro

I think when making anthro style animals there should be some sort of...similarity, perhaps. Take other Dreamworks movie, Spirit. Okay, so yes, Spirit has lots of emotions and facial expression that horses normally don't have, sure, but so does the other horses. They are all anthros, all equally smart and capable of understanding humans. Rain, the mare, makes also faces to humans and other horses, so yes. There is a pattern. In that movie and universe, horses do communicate with humans through facial expressions. I get that. Though why those horses have eyebrowns I dunno...moving on!

But in this dragon universe it's soo random. Some are very, VERY animal-like and some very human-like. I'm very much okay if dragons are like Drago form Dragonheart movie, or like Drogon in GoT. Make them animal-like or human-like, but don't make it on/off thing. I've heard some people say that "Well it's like with dogs, Toothless is like bordercollie, extremely intelligent, unlike some other breeds.". Yes, okay, fine, collies are indeed very, very smart. They can learn complicated tricks, of course. But they are still dogs, animals. Like pugs, pitties, goldies...all of them are dogs, capable of doing tricks, even though some might learn them faster than the others. So comparing Stormfly and Toothless, they are, indeed, from different world completely even though they are suppose to both be from the same animal group. It just feels wrong to me, that some dragons are seen as "stupid" because of ultra-brain Toothless. And okay, Light Fury seems to understand too, because she saved Toothless after Hiccup set her free, but personally I think that she was like "Oh..Freedom? Coming my man!". So not following the orders, just her instinct.


Also, why Hiccup knows more about Night Fury's mating rituals than Toothless? Isn't that something that comes naturally from an animal, even the last of his kind? I think it's still too long scene anyway. It could've been used to explain some of the issues, but wahtever. I'm not huge fan of Light Fury. She's okay, but a bit too..feminine for my taste. Meatlug and Stormfly are females, but they look like all the others. So why Light Fury is so sensuel animal comparing to them? And yes, need to mate can be very powerful, but if Toothless is indeed almost like human with his brains, can't he understand the value of friendsip over that need? I think it felt too rush to bring that Light Fury in to the picture. She doesn't really have any character. Then again...neither do have any other, to be honest. In the series I loved Snotlout and the Twins, they were so much fun! But in the movies they all just kind a...were there. Not really doing anything, just...being there. Yeah. It still bothers me. Wasn't the whole series about teamwork, sticking together...oh you know where I'm going with this.


Oh one more thing! In the first movie, it wasn't only that when Hiccup got Toothless then they could destroy Red Death. It was combination of learning from the dragons AND from the viking world. Like blind spots. And that is, when you think about it, very clever move. Not one world is perfect or have all the answers, you need both. It wasn't like vikings were worst or anything, they just had the difference knowledge, different point of view. And Hiccup needed both to destroy that huge beast. But in the later movies, I think, they go way too much of the terms of the dragons. Hiccup especially goes indeed a bit too far, being almost obsessed. I think in a series and the later movies it's all about the dragons, not anymore how to live together, but how to change the world for dragons.

toothlessnightfury's picture
Supreme Viking Champion
Joined: 01/24/2015
Flame Lizards!

Glad I am not the only one who feels like Hiccup became too... obsessed with dragons and I it felt like that was the only thing ohis mind.


Astrid even pointed it out several times in the series and in a deleted HTTYD3 scene.