End of Grapple Grounder confusion

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nathanviking's picture
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Joined: 08/13/2017

So I am making my own Book of Dragons. I have every dragon species in the franchise, and am trying to make it as canonically accurate as possible. When I got to the Grapple Grounder, I couldn't decide which Grapple Grounder model I should use.

The original:


The RoB model:


Or the SoD model:

I decided to put the SoD model AND the original model, as if there was a variation of the species.


However, Rise of Berk has saved us!

A while back, Rise of Berk released the Swampscrapper, a subspecies of Grapple Grounder:


It looks like a SoD Grapple Grounder.









The original Grapple Grounder is actually a Swampscrapper, and SoD's Grapple Grounder is a real one.

The official discription of the Swampscrapper says this:


"This Dragon has grown specialized to the swamps of its home, Breakneck Bog. Its bulky build allows it to quickly subdue enemies in the thick water."



So if it's a bulkier Grapple Grounder, then the original Grapple Grounder would fit it's discription more.







Which one do you guys think makes more sense?






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Ballista is a male Triple Stryke, and is about 3 months old. He has been with Eek ever since he was born. His mother was enslaved by a war cheiftain from accross the sea. Ballista's personality is very similar to that of Sleuther, but more rebellious. He (like his rider) has a sense of humor, and he is very intelligent. He will protect Eek at all costs, and will not hesitate to fight. He is no stranger to combat, as he was once captured and held in dragon fights. This was only briefly, as Eek was captured too, and helped to rescue him. Eek could not ask for a better dragon. If you don't see Eek around Berk or the School, he's probably above the clouds on Ballista's back.


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Berk's Power Player
Joined: 08/03/2016
You're not going to like this...

Uhm, personally I don't like how the first one looks, period. TBH though, RoB's picture doesn't match the description. A bulky build combined with a swamp dragon would make me picture something closer to an alligator or croc with wings.

But for your question, the second theory is better to me.

And btw, I think it's totally awesome that you're creating your own book of dragons. Honestly it sounds a lot more detailed than what's currently out, so it's more like an encyclopedia of dragons!

nathanviking's picture
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Joined: 08/13/2017
Yeah, I've been working on it

Yeah, I've been working on it for about 2 years now. (I've been editing and changing things). I get most of my information from the wiki. Maybe eventually I will post some pictures of it here!

WhispertheWolf's picture
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Joined: 03/13/2015
Impossible, I'm afraid

I'm afraid your theory relies on the Swampscrapper being some sort of the subspecies to the Grapple Grounder...which it is not. Swampscrapper is the name of an individual Grapple Grounder. If he varies at all from any other Grapple Grounder, it's just variation across individuals. In fact, aside from coloring, I don't really see any difference between Swampscrapper and the typical RoB Grapple Grounder...which makes sense, since he is one.


Now there's not a whole lot of difference between the RoB and SoD versions of the Grapple Grounder except for the fact that the RoB version has a much stouter jaw that more resembles the original version from the Wii game, which was based on a statue from the first movie. It's just a plain mistake on the part of the franchise. Now if you want to justify the inconsistencies with a theory, all three of these could be seen as individual variation within the species. Or all three could be seen as different subspecies, but if we are to call them different subspecies, there are no canon names we can apply them. We'd have to make them up ourselves.


Ooh, you're writing a Book of Dragons, too? Cool! Though if I may suggest, don't use the wikia as your main source. It's a good place to direct you toward information, but if the information cited in it is isn't backed up by a source, don't accept it outright. It's a terribly inaccurate wikia and nearly impossible to correct if you try. I used to be on the team for writing it, and it's just a mess. Wrong information gets placed on it so often, and getting it removed is like pulling teeth, only the teeth get angry and shout at you in all caps when you do. And putting up correct information is difficult as well if it conflicts with some commonly-accepted preferred fan theory of the fandom. Just an absolute headache to keep up-to-date. I had to leave for my own sanity.


If I may, might I recommend you use canon sources instead? For examples, here's the sources I've used when compiling my Dragon Manual over the last 5 years ("Dragon Manual" being the term used in the first movie for the so-called "Book of Dragons"):

How to Train Your Dragon (movie and Blu-ray special features)

How to Train Your Dragon 2 (movie and Blu-ray special features)

Legend of the Boneknapper Dragon

Dragons: Gift of the Night Fury

Book of Dragons (movie and Blu-ray special features)

DreamWorks’ Dragons: Riders of Berk (episodes and DVD special features)

DreamWorks’ Dragons: Defenders of Berk (episodes and DVD special features)

DreamWorks’ Dragons: Race to the Edge (episodes)

How to Train Your Dragon: The Serpent’s Heir by Dean DeBlois and Richard Hamilton

Dragons: Riders of Berk Titan comics

Dragons: Defenders of Berk Titan comics

How to Train Your Dragon webisodes

How to Train Your Dragon director/animator interviews

How to Train Your Dragon Video Game

School of Dragons

Dragons: Rise of Berk

DreamWorks’ Dragons: Wild Skies

How to Train Your Dragon website (old version and current version)

Cartoon Network: DreamWorks Dragons: Dragons webpage

Race to the Edge Google Map

How to Train Your Dragon Tumblr

How to Train Your Dragon Facebook

DreamWorks’ Dragons Facebook

School of Dragon Facebook

Dragons: Rise of Berk Facebook

The Art of How to Train Your Dragon

The Art of How to Train Your Dragon 2

To Berk and Beyond by Richard Hamilton

Dragons: Guide to the Dragons Volume 1 by Maggie Testa

Dragons: Guide to the Dragons Volume 2 by Cordelia Evans

Dragons: Guide to the Dragons Volume 3 by Cordelia Evans

Book of Dragons by Maggie Testa

How to Train Your Dragon 2: All About the Dragons by Judy Katschke

How to Train Your Dragon 2: Dragon Mountain Adventure by Judy Katschke

How to Train Your Dragon 2: Dragon Race! by Cordelia Evans

How to Train Your Dragon 2: Time to Race! by Elizabeth Bennett

How to Train Your Dragon 2: My Busy Book by Eliana Palucci

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AniuRavenwolf's picture
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THis Reminds me Whisper we sould get back to our own book of dragons soon.


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WhispertheWolf's picture
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Oh, yes, we should!

Oh, yes, we should!

nathanviking's picture
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Joined: 08/13/2017
Actually, the Swampscrapper

Actually, the Swampscrapper WOULD be considered a subspecies of Grounder since the official discription calls it an "it" rather than a "he or "she". Although they do this with many dragons. The Swampscrapper isn't the only dragon that is a subspecies of dragon. Remember the Desert Wraith? Or Sweet Wraith? Snoggletog Wraith, Frozen Groncicle, Leafy Snaptrapper, Sneezlehunch? 


Are you also making a book of dragons? I will have to post a few pages here to show you guys!

WhispertheWolf's picture
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Afraid not

While Dragons: Rise of Berk does make subspecies, it usually releases individual dragons, like Gresskarmor and Gleamer, and they are notorious for calling all dragons "it" instead of referring to them as "he" or "she," aside from the dragons used by the Dragon Riders. (They've called Scardian an "it," for example.) Swampscrapper and Sneezlehunch are both individuals, not subspecies. Swampscrapper is a Grapple Grounder, and Sneezlehunch is a Snifflehunch. In fact, recently Rise of Berk even had a post on their Facebook acking "What species is Swampscrapper?" Not the Swampscrapper, just Swampscrapper. The post can be seen at this link.


I wouldn't say I've been making a Dragon Manual; rather, I've had one, and having it is kind of an on-going process. I started making one back in 2012 just so I could have dragon information all in one place - at the time I wanted to design a quiz to see what dragons people match best, but once we exceeded 30 dragons, I kind of gave up on that - and as new information is released, I just keep adding onto it. It's honestly just a really long word document that I'm constantly updating. I haven't added the Silkspanner dragons to it yet, though, since information on them is still pretty scanty. I'll wait for Dragonvine to come out before I add them.

nathanviking's picture
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Huh. There goes that theory.

Huh. There goes that theory. :P  I guess we will have to go with the "variation in the species" explaination. Buthere's a question: if there was no variation in the species, which model of Grapple Grounder would be canon? It would be cool if they put one in RTTE so they could clear this mess up.

I still consider Sneezlehunch a subspecies. The Snifflehunch shoots fire, not ice. The Sneezlehunch would be an ice breathing subspecies of Snifflehunch. 

However, sometimes RoB adds uncanon things to dragons, like Reignstorm the Stormcutter shooting lightning, the Champion Triple Stryke shooting acid out of it's stingers, etc.



I have my Book of Dragons in a Powerpoint presentation. :D

WhispertheWolf's picture
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Hmm...technically they're all canon? It's basically a canon inconsistency. This franchise is ripe with them. Even RTTE gets so much stuff wrong, it's freaking crazy. (In fact, they get so much stuff blatantly wrong that putting a dragon in RTTE doesn't mean we have a "canon" version confirmed; it just means there's another canon version same as the games. Movies are the only definitive things in this franchise.) Having the different versions basically means the fan can pick and choose which part of canon they want to follow. For my money, I try to go with the stuff most consistent with the films, so I pick the original Wii Grapple Grounder because it looks the most like the dragon statue in the Great Hall.


Yeah, unfortunately Sneezlehunch is not subspecies, even though it makes no sense for it to shoot ice. I thought it was a subspecies for the longest time due to that, too, but it is indeed an individual. Like you said, their breath weapons don't always make sense. Remember how Rise of Berk said, Sven's Nightmare, Silencer, breathes acid instead of fire? *rolls eyes* (This game sometimes, I swear.)


Ooh, cool! Yeah, I would love to see some slides of your book sometime!

nathanviking's picture
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Yeah, I consider anything

Yeah, I consider anything that does not contradict what the movies say "canon". I actually didn't think about the statue in the great hall when it comes to picking the "canon" version of the Grapple Grounder. Thanks! 

Only parts of RoB seem to be canon. For example, the dragon color variations. I figure that the color varieties seen in rise of berk are canon as long as they (again) don't contradict the movies and shows. For example, the Skrill is supposed to have a dark hide in order to blend in with the clouds, but some Skrills in rise of berk have bright colors. (with the exception of the lavender skrill, which I'm actually SURE this time is a subspecies). And, the Snow Wraith, which is supposed to have an all white body to blend in with the snow, but rise of berk had a purple snow wraith. Ughhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!! 


But anyway, thanks for the advice! You sure do know your dragons! If you want to be friends in game, my friend code is CKN3SH.

WhispertheWolf's picture
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Joined: 03/13/2015

Same, I also consider whatever doesn't contradict to the fims to be canon. But that means that it's not just RoB that's only partly canon. SoD and RTTE are only partly canon, too. They have a lot of stuff that's movie-contradictory, unfortunately. Sometimes I think they're just trying to make us analytical fans work harder. XD


I'd love to be friends in-game, but...my friends list is full in-game, so it won't let me add you. Sorry. :(


Hmm, well, I do have two Vikings I like to play with, WhispertheWolf and NorberttheNutcase, and Norbert's friend list isn't full. Tell you what, I'll friend you with that Viking. ;)

nathanviking's picture
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Sounds like a plan! Which

Sounds like a plan! Which parts of RTTE aren't canon? 

WhispertheWolf's picture
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RTTE Canon and Non-Canon

Usually they're non-canon in small stuff. Like, they forget that the first movie said the Hideous Zippleback has venom. They forget that dragons can't breathe fire if their heads are wet. They forget that the Skrill is supposed to be slower than the Night Fury, and that the Deadly Nadder is not supposed to be fast dragon (chicken or no). They claim Gronckles are the least dangerous drgons when the first movie indicated otherwise. That sort of thing. On top of that, their maps are almost never consistent, and their timeline often doesn't make sense; already the series is said to take place over a number of years, but that's kind of impossible if the teens really did start out as 18 and 19 at the beginning of it and then are 19 and 20 in the second movie. Sometimes the characters are out-of-character compared to their movie counterparts. It's only in certain moments and it's usually subtle, but it's definitely there.


Sometimes it's bigger stuff, too. The biggest thing I can think of is the fact that they had Hiccup and Astrid get together during the TV series. That definitely runs count to the movies. They clearly gave each other romantic indications at the end of the first movie - at least, Astrid did, and Hiccup openly accepted it - they were openly romantically affectionate in Gift of the Night Fury (which was made by the movie crew), and the director of the second film said Hiccup and Astrid have been together for 5 years. ....RTTE just kind of ignored all that, for some reason? Too bad, too, because I think it would have been interesting to see two people already in a relationship learn and grow together as a couple. We rarely get that in kids' shows.


Stuff like Dagur, Heather, other new people, the new dragons, the new locations, that sort of thing, those I'd consider canon since they don't really contradict anything. And their Titan Wings are consistent with what the movie-connected shorts stated, so that's great. Every now and then they just get a few dragon facts blatantly wrong or just don't have consistent characters and timelines...with the movies or sometimes even with earlier episodes. But I do like the fact that the show expands the world, and I like a lot of the dragons they make.

nathanviking's picture
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Yeah, I actually made a

Yeah, I actually made a timeline of the movies, shows, and school of dragons expansions. I'll have to make an updated one and post it. I try to make it as accurate as possible. It will probably make more sense than the RTTE timeline. :D