'Clash of the Clans' effect on clan unity (must read)

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Terraline's picture
Terraline
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Surprise

I wish we could have explained this to everoyne outside the clan sooner in order to prevent the misconceptions that people had/have, but we did want the element of surprise on our side. 

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Sylph264
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PEOPLE. This doesn't make the

PEOPLE. This doesn't make the Snow Leopards divided, it proves how close we are! We saw how stunning the amount of trophies the Flame Wings were racking in (you guys are awesome! I'm honored to have competed with you!) and we realized that pure muscle wasn't going to make up for the gap. So we planned. We WORKED TOGETHER. We, AS A CLAN, not as a leader and helpless followers as you are making it out to be, decided to drop members that had not been very active. ALL MEMBERS DROPPED AGREED IT WAS A GOOD IDEA AND WERE DROPPED WILLINGLY. They were invited back right away. The Snow Leopards didn't break under pressure and cheat to win! We used STRATEGY to beat a near-invincible enemy! If you really think what we did was wrong and destroyed our clan, than you truly do not know what loyalty and friendship are. Loyalty is realizing that sometimes, the best way to contribute to the whole is by standing on the sidelines for awhile, providing support. Friendship is knowing that you can't always be there and realizing that not being with your clan 24-7 is okay.
Wisdom is knowing that using strategy isn't cheating.

Fleiri
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Ok now I wish I had never posted.

Ok just since Hattori took my post the wrong way...

I'm not on either side but I understand both sides of the argument and so I just posted a summery of all the most imortant (in my view) points.

I never said that there was a lack of loyalty all I was trying to do was stop this argument, because I dislike it when people fight and when there is a growing dislike that could become hate.

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Siren-Spirit
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Ok

Ok, look

Here is my opinion it was wrong to drop them even in the first place even upon agreement. To be defeated by an enemy and a clan to respectfully bow and allow defeat is a honorable thing. Both clans dropping members is a disappointment. I understand winning is a huge thing but being defeated without any use of any other strategy would have been good too. Just trying to race with either clan would have been wonderful alone. To see the fact that they fought tooth and nail to win is great. I have played more in depth games then this to be honest and being defeated by a mighty opponent is fantastic! It just means you get to try harder next time to beat them! You have a goal next time.
But, to drop players as a strategy yes, you won good on you all but I still fail to see why do it if you could have won without it. Both clans I am disappointed in, I pick no sides even though I am in the Flamewings I am just as disappointed in my own leader as I am in the other.
Sure, drop clan members would be invited back...but that is not the point. You should have been able to win both CLANS should have without resorting to measures such as these. Maybe...both clans should have a secondary competition. Without dropping members to see...who wins. Who knows it could be fun!

But, at all this fighting and arguing it's a bit...useless now don't ya think? They won "fair and square" even if they did drop members.

Its been done it's OVER they did what they did BOTH clans did what they did and it can not be undone. So, enough with snapping at them both. They know what they did maybe next time.
 

Oh and as a added note...Maybe drop inactive before a competition

Instead of during. Ya?

 

 

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Terraline's picture
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Strategy

We will gracefully bow out and accept defeat when it is time to do so, as I think most everyone would agree is the right and honorable thing to do.  And I want to say that we are very grateful to have such a formidable opponent as the Flame Wings!  It made the week incredibly challenging.  But I have to say that we didn't "resort to" anything, we simply did everything we could to remain united and to make everyone feel that they were doing all they could to support their clan and their family. 

 

You said that maybe inactive people should be dropped before the tournament instead of during.  Things come up every day: its not as clean as the fact that someone is completely active one minute and then completely inactive the next.  Everyone's lives change at a different pace, so during the week we talked and tracked and planned and then we implemented our agreed upon plan at the last minute in order to have the element of surprise.  And we also kept several completely inactive members who we knew might not be able to accept a reinvite in time.  If we really cared about winning over unity, we would have dropped them.  We did not.  We are much more interested in family and in teamwork.

 

Every single member did what was in the best interest of the clan as a whole, whether that was spending endless hours competiting (and covering for the inactive members we did not drop) or by taking a break and dealing with real life issues.

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From a Snow Leapard
I was think that I should give my opinion on this. I am in the Snow Leopards and know what happened on the inside. No one was ‘kicked’ out. Everyone was asked about the dropping and had their say. So in a way it made us use more teamwork then just earing trophies. 
 
I come from bigger more competitive MMO so this and actions like it are nothing I have not seen, seen a lot worse then this. I do not see why this is bing made in to a big thing. Any competition will have people trying to win it. 
 
As to the fact of it being right or wrong that is for you and your clan to decided. The Snow Leopards came up with this strategy and used it as a clan. No one was forced in to anything. I would also like to point out this is tantamount to using ‘the shortcuts’ in Frozen warriors and Gronckle Run. They are bug and why do people use them? To win.
 
I do feel it compromised us a little, and this action gave another point that people can complain about the Snow Leopards. I would like to draw your attention now that most of the comments are directed at the Snow leopards. Also, not to point fingers, but Flame Wings where cutting members even when they had the advantage already. Just pointing that out.
 
Personally ,vet or not, I would have dropped the inactive people, but that is me. Hatt did not, and went for a way to keep everyone together. For that I do commend him. Am I ashamed that this tactic was employed? No, I am not. It is what was need to be done  and was used with out hurting any one to my knowledge. 
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Well...

I know that everyone is saying what the SL did was wrong, HOWEVER if any of you watch sports like football, American football, um...baseball. Things like that! You'd notice that some players will be brought back to rest or if they got injured or just need a bit to collect themselves again. Why doesn't anybody say anything about that? I mean sometimes good players are taken out of the game like that, sometimes not, but they are still taken out and if they can get back in the game they do (Not all the time though, sometimes the coach just won't let them). I put a thread on last night saying I'm a swimmer and I have a relay team with my current team. Sometimes I know that I can't help my team (if I'm injured or just did a race and tired etc.) and I will ask the coach to let our alternate racer come in to cover for me. I know that isn't exactly like what was done here, but it is similar in a way, no?

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@ hattori

i have nothing against you personally. but i do have plenty against your decision.

 

now you said that what you did was a strategy. i say that it is more like cheating. you think its fair. i think otherwise. you say nobody explains why it isnt fair. everyone did.

 

its basicly cheating becuase you removed people from your clan just to get a higher score and win. you knew that without doing something you would lose against FW. you could have graciously accepted that you lost, and this whole debate going on in this thread would not have to happen. but why - why did you remove players from SL, even with their consent, just so that you could win?

 

you tell everyone against your decision to read your comments above. everyone did. now why dont you read their comments?

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Actually, it's a more "fair

Actually, it's a more "fair and square win". 

Not only SL removed the members from the clan. if you read why this thread is brought up in the first place, you'll know that they have also removed the members equal to us.

I've read everyone's comment and if you've noticed, I've also replied to everyone.

and yes, we removed the players from the SL (for temporoary) to win. we didnt drop them just like that, like FW did. then what's the point in participating?

and, once again, this is not cheating. this is strategy. I think one of our member has made a clear explanation above on difference between strategy and cheating.

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...

Keep in mind that not only SL, but other clans did this too.

So there is no reason to "accuse" Hattori like that.

 

But i do agree with what you said. 

Even if Flame Wings was kicking out members, you could have just gracefully accepted your defeat and kept your pride.

 

 

 

Is losing so bad? Is everybody so drawn to fame and victory?

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Thak you for pointing out SL

Thak you for pointing out SL is not the only one.

 

Again fight and do all u can to win is my point od view. I will acsept loosing if we lost knowing we had done all we could to win. As to "Is losing so bad? Is everybody so drawn to fame and victory?" it is human nature to want these things. Yes losing is bad. Simple fact.

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Victory and Defeat

We have every intention of gracefully accepting defeat when it is time to do so.  We did not act rashly, or in the heat of the moment, or because we wanted to win, or because we are drawn to fame and glory.  We acted the way we did because we love and respect each of our clan members and we wanted each one to be able to contribute in the way they were best able to.  I believe that the decision we made was the best one possible considering the circumstances of this tournament, and we are proud that everyone was able to contribute and work together and agree. 

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Ok i see your point but here

Ok i see your point but here are some big flaws with ur agument. Cheating means rules where broken. No rules that i have seen where. Fair? No one has said anything about that. I went back though and read all the comments none are about it being fair or not.

Also u have not lost anyting untell you get the end. I firmly belive in never giveing up. Fight to the end and do all u can to win. We did this. Also this would still be here aFlame Wings cut people first, and cut them with out asking or talking about it with the members. Yes to win. what is wrong with wanting, fighting, to win? The point of competing is to win.

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Unity

We let some people take a break because they had real life issues going on and because we wanted everyone to be able to contribute in the way they were best able to.  Allowing everyone to do what they could makes everyone a part of the same strong team, even though we each contribute in different ways. 

 

This decision allowed each one of us to act in the best interest of every clan member, keeping us strong and united.

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Can someone please explain to

Can someone please explain to me how dropping members from a clan (re-adding them later or not) can be cheating/cheap but exploiting bugs in TR is not? I don't think I've met a singel player that race Frozen Warriors or Gronkle Run without useing the short-cuts that only exists due to a bug...

 

Also:

cheat

verb \ˈchēt\

: to break a rule or law usually to gain an advantage at something

: to take something from (someone) by lying or breaking a rule

: to prevent (someone) from having something that he or she deserves or was expecting to get

 

Since no rule or law was broken, I wouldn't call it cheating. 'Morally wrong' perhaps, but per definition not cheating. Unless FW deserved/ was expected to win, but that's is not my decision to make so the last one could be applied loosley (after all, there is no guarantee for victory in a competition).

 

 

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I hope this topic will be

I hope this topic will be deleted  -.-.

We started arguing and it's just,it just got lame.

So yah.

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Not taking sides, and I adore

Not taking sides, and I adore both clans, BUT

 

I agree. I am a competitive person, but I myself accept a loss, if the opponent wins, they win! Simple! But when they kick players out of the clan for the sake of winning, really? This s something I haven't read so far, but I'd like to say it...

 

When your opponent does something bad that makes them win, instead of copying their bad moves and trying to beat them, accept the fact that you are going to lose.

 

That is just a fact I like. But in this case, SL won, the copyers... (Hard to use that saying in situations like this now)...

 

I'd prefer if they used another strategy, and use that to beat FM. as many people have already clarified.

 

I do say, I am dissapointed... It has weakened my love for these clans, don't let this happen. You're all amazing, you're the perfect clans! But sometimes winning can cloud up even the most kindest and brightest of minds. The soul is tore apart when this happens. Please! We all beg, we say this together, in desperation, don't let this happen again. The clans should forever remain fair, and should congratulate one another when someclan wins. I am not taking sides, believe me, it's happened to me once before, but it led to the worst thing that ever could've happened to me! The loss of the bestest friend I had, in the world...

 

And yes, SL wasn't the only clan that did this, but thank you for admitting your apologies, Silver.

 

Hatt, I am not on sides, and am not starting a fight. And yes, I prefer to stay out of these things too, so I don't blame you at all XD But it'd be nice if there could be apologies, and it'd be left there. I know you were using strategy,  but please, do one thing, both clan leaders...

 

Choose wisely. The right path to take isn't always the easy path, most of the time you have to do it the hard way to do what's right. Thank You, I've had my word...

 

Wish you luck, grand clans, I still admire you...

 

 

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Feedback

While I cannot speak for the other clans, I can say that the Snow Leopards did not "kick players out of the clan for the sake of winning." We let every member of our clan contribute in the way they were best able to last week, and we waited until the last minute to implement our carefully-communicated stragety so as to have the element of surprise.  I firmly believe this was the best decision we could have made for each and every one of our clan members, and that we would have been letting everyone down had we done anything else. 

 

We should all gracefully accept a loss when we lose, and we should all do what we feel is in the best interest of each of our friends and clanmates, considering friendship and unity above winning.  I think the Snow Leopards made the wisest choice possible given the constraints of this tournament.  It would have been nice if there had been a way to let members who needed to sit out do so, and I hope that is something that will be implemented in the next tournament since our decision to allow this has caused so much friction outside our clan.

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And yes, you may reply, but

And yes, you may reply, but let's end the fights, adn end this argument, whe done with, yes, this thread should be deleted, as clarified just then...

 

Thanks for letting me have my say though :D

 

 

End of argument...

 

 

 

Blessed Be... May magic protect you...

 

And yes, don't ask, I'm Wiccan...

I'm a witch... :P

Doesn't make me bad though, I HATE how people are treated differently because of something they believe in, do you?

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Can we please stop this? I

Can we please stop this? I admit, I'm a member of Snow Leopards and I was a part of the decision to drop members- just like every member of the clan was. Maybe what we did was wrong. Maybe it was even cheating. Maybe it shouldn't be allowed, and maybe no clan should have done it or be allowed to do it in the future.

But this... I almost felt like crying when I read some of the hateful things being said- on both sides of the argument. I love my clan and am proud of it, and I want to continue to defend it, but not like this. People (please, I'm not pointing fingers here) accusing each other of lying, cheating, of being bad people with no morals... can we please stop? All of us. Please. Snow Leopards. Flame Wings. Polka-dotted unicorns from Scotland. I don't care who you are or where you're from. Just please...

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I do not blame the leaders of

I do not blame the leaders of the Flame Wings or the Snow Leopards for their decisions so much as I blame the setup of the tournament itself.  Averaging the trophy amounts of the whole clan provides initiative to drop inactive members, particularly when the competition is very heated as seen in the one between the Flame Wings and Snow Leopards.  While I do not agree with the practice of cutting members (even with their knowledge), I can understand it.  Everyone likes to win.  It's in our nature, and in the heat of the moment our judgement can often be clouded.  The strategy behind it may be sound, but the morality of it is questionable.

The biggest drawback of cutting people is that it causes a lot of arguments and unnecessary fights.  By taking a more drastic step forward in order to achieve a victory, two steps are taken back in developing good relations between clans and trying to keep the competition friendly and fun.  The reason to avoid it is seen in this thread.  It makes people upset, and in the end no one wins.

 

 

While I am not angry with Swift or Hattori, I am a bit surprised.  I had hoped that the competition would not end in this.

Yet again, they had many reasons to do what they did.  The setup of the tournament only encouraged their actions.

Ideally, the tournamet could have asked larger clans to select 10 (or 15 maybe) players who would compete for one week, and then their scores would be averaged.  If they advanced into the next stage, they could either keep the same players or switch them out.  This would allow people to have a break, and inactive members would not have to be selected at all.  The same process would be used for smaller clans, except they would require 5 or so members to compete.

Prizes for each bracket of winners also would have been nice.  Their value could go up in worth until the ultimate competition for the prize of the boots.

It's not a foolproof system, but I think it would have created less bitterness among us.

 

My greatest hope is that we will all be able to forgive one another.  We all make mistakes, and sometimes situations such as clan tournaments can push us to do things that we would normally never consider.  With the tournament almost over, I will be glad for a break so that we may all enjoy our time together without stressing over high-stake trophy earning.

 

I am still glad for the experience, because I am sure that many of us (players and development team alike) have learned what works for a competition and what does not.  I have enjoyed competing with you all, and I wish the Snow Leopards and Fearless clan the best of luck!

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Terraline's picture
Terraline
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Tournament Suggestions

I agree that everyone does like to win, and that in the heat of the moment judgment can be clouded.  However, SL did not do what they did in the heat of the moment or because we like to win.  We did it to allow every member of our clan to contribute in the way they were best able to this past week.

 

I really like the idea of clans designating certain players to compete each week.  I think this is a great idea that would help account for times when people are unavailable for one reason or another and is something that should be built in to the next tournament, since we basically had to do this ad-hoc this time around.  Just like sports teams decide who they play each week so that they don't have to play injured or sick players, each competing clan should be able to do the same.

 

Maybe the admins could require that at least half the players be registered to play each week (or something like that) so that it’s basically the same rule across the board for clans of all sizes.

 

Great idea!  And definitely prizes for more clans.  I'm actually surprised that wasn't worked in to this competition since many, many people asked for it after the last one.

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I must defend the style of

I must defend the style of the tournament a little here. What better way is there? Yes this system can use some work but it is most likely the most fair system that u can put in to play. As for an improvement membership counts are locked at the start of the week. Yes u can drop members mid wee but the numbers u had at the start are what is used.

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Calculations

I had another thought too...

 

When banks calculate how much interest to pay on a savings account at the end of the month, they do it by considering the average amount that was in the account that month.  I don't know if they take a daily or hourly value or what, but by taking many data points and doing the calculation of total trophies divided by average number of members, there would be no sudden drop at the end for a changing member count since it would basically be a time-weighted average.

 

But I don't know if this would be too complicated for the devs to implement.  :)

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I like how everyone is using

I like how everyone is using my coined phrase, "for the sake of winning". 

 

Ha.

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Decisions

Imagine this.  You are a clan leader in week three of the clash of the clans tournament and a member of your clan comes to you and says, “I will be out of town this week without access to a computer and unable to play.  I don’t want to bring the numbers down for my clanmates who will be working so hard, so please take me out for this week and bring me back in for the last week when I can play again.”

 

What would you do?  Would you leave that person in anyway, resulting in them feeling bad or guilty for not being able to play?  I am not a clan leader, but I can’t imagine that I would.  We in the Snow Leopards, after thinking long and hard about this, decided to let every member of our clan contribute in the way that they were best able to: either by spending hours and hours and hours earning trophies, or by taking a break on the sidelines when they needed to.

 

I firmly believe that any other course of action would have been letting down both our active and our inactive members, plain and simple. 

 

Consider sports teams.  They don’t play their players who are sick or injured or who otherwise aren’t able to play that week.  No one in our clan was going to say, “Oh, you have a family medical emergency?  Get out there and earn trophies anyway.”  That isn't who we are.  That isn't who any of us are, in any of these clans.

 

I know that what we did looked like a surprise.  When facing a very formidable opponent (and make no mistake, the Flame Wings were a very formidable opponent), intelligence, strength, and unity are not always enough.  Sometimes you also need the element of surprise.  If we had posted every single decision we made in the forums, I doubt anyone would be upset.  “So-and-so has a family medical emergency this week and cannot play, so they are taking a break and will be rejoining us next week.”  We didn’t post these updates, because we wanted the element of surprise.  What must have looked like a shock to everyone outside the clan was no last ditch effort to win, but rather the execution of a carefully constructed plan that everyone was on board with and that we were ready to implement in the last few minutes of the tournament if needed in order to have that advantage of surprise.

 

By implementing this carefully thought out and well-communicated internal plan we were able to allow each and every member to contribute in the way that they were best able to this past week, and all come quickly back together afterward.  I am sorry if anyone in another clan regrets their actions, but we did not act rashly or out of impulse or because we wanted to win.  I strongly feel that the Snow Leopards did exactly what was in the best interest of each and every one of its clan members.  I know not everyone had the inside view that we did, which is why we are explaining it now.

 

I do not envy any clan leader.  Especially during a tournament, they have enormous responsibility on their shoulders.  Not a responsibility to win the tournament, but a responsibility to act in the best interest of their clan and all of its members.  I cannot say what I would have done if I were in Hatt’s shoes, but I hope I would have displayed the same strength, intelligence, foresight, and loyalty to his family that he did.  Given the circumstances of this tournament (which I completely agree could have been better planned and improved), it was the very best decision that could have been made to honor each member of the clan, to work together as a team, and to display friendship and loyalty to each other. 

 

We are completely united.  There are some people outside our clan who are hurting us by saying that we aren't, and I hope they will carefully consider the above information before continuing to do so.

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A house not divided.

I would like to point out that all the SL that has responded here are in full support of what the Clan did. It did not dived the clan at all. in fact i think it made it stronger. 

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I guess, to those it may concern.

TO: Swift Silver

 I commend you. It takes a lot of courage to admit a mistake. But it takes a HECK of a lot more courage to not only admit you made a mistake and apologize, but to do so on a public forum. THAT takes courage. You owned up to your mistakes like a good leader should. So keep it up! And I hope see you and your clan again out there.

 

TO: Hattori and the SL clan

   Ahhahaha you guys are awesome and hilarious at the same time. I mean you guys turned the tide to your favor at the last minute it sounds like. USING THE SCORING METHOD OF THE TOURNAMENT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE. That was GENIUS. hahaha can't wait to see what other strategies you guys come up with for the next round.   :)  hehe and I'm in fearless so I can't wait to meet that challenge XD.

 

TO: (-_-) some(NOT ALL) of the critics here

  All right some of you had a point that it's morally wrong to kick people out just to win. BUT this is a thread from swift silver to apologize to those he had wronged.Its an APOLOGY!! so stop making a big deal of it. either except the apology or don't. As for the comments on the snow leopards. So Swift made a mistake in thinking Hattori was guilty of the same act. SO WHAT!! As Hattori and practically every member of the snow leopards said, they were using the weird scoring method that the administration created for the tournament to their advantage. And the entire clan was up for it. It was a strategic plan to turn the tide of battle (if you would even call it that) in their favor. that's it that's all they did. no matter what one thinks (no matter if you think it wrong or right) that is the truth. Period.

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You sir are wonderful. U sum

You sir are wonderful. U sum up both sides with out pointing fingers or say either was wrong for what they did. 

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Terraline
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I enjoyed reading this. 

I enjoyed reading this.  lol.  :)

Adrienne Asvald
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Joined: 01/23/2014
Well done!

What you just said was perfect. No pointing fingers, no clan at fault. Let's just leave it at that, guys. :)

Hoshine
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Tadaa

I just hope nothing like this will ever happen again.

 

(also, thank you Jörmungandr for being awesome)

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firewormqueen
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Supreme Viking Champion
Joined: 10/22/2013
It ended! Yayyy! Thank you!

It ended! Yayyy! Thank you! :P We're all happy, together as one again... :)

 

HAPPY DAYS EVERYONE :P